The Olympics & the EU

Much has been written in the past about why the European Union can never succeed in their avowed aim to create a United States of Europe and, apparently,  there was an attempt after the 1992 event by the EU to participate in the Olympics under an ‘EU’ flag to further that aim.

The main reason, I would suggest, for the aim of the EU remaining unfulfilled is that of the feeling of nationalism. Whatever your country of birth, how can such a person not feel national pride on viewing one’s ‘flag’ being raised after the final of an event? While I do not have that much time for Daniel Hannan on ‘matters political’, with this article he ‘hits the nail on the head’ when he questions the use of the pronoun ‘We’.

It could be said that feeling good about your country also makes you feel good about your own life. Where immigration is concerned, that raises the question of what is ‘your country’. It’s fine to say pride in your country makes you happy, but what kind of pride – and what country – are we talking about? There are intriguing – and political – differences – because pride can be divided into two types. There is, I suggest, ‘ethnic’ nationalism which involves ancestry and there is ‘civic’ nationalism which involves respect for a country’s institutions and laws for belonging. It could be said that civic nationalism is open to minorities or immigrants, at least in principle, but is not ‘nationalism’ per se also open to minorities or immigrants if they have chosen to make an ‘alien’ nation their country of residence and enjoying all that that country offers?

It is all very well constructing ‘tests’ for citizenship, but said ‘tests’ are worthless if the person concerned still retains a sense of ‘ethnic nationalism’ – and no ‘test’ can negate that. Logically, therefore, any policy of immigration and ‘integration’ of differing societies cannot work unless a period of 10/20 years, if not longer, passes before ‘citizenship’ is granted wherein a ‘family’ can show they have ‘integrated’ and accept their ‘adopted’ country as their own.

Just raising another subject for debate………..

Afterthought: If we have to be in the European Union, then a question of the ‘Natural Order’ enters the equation, in which case: is this not it?

With a H/T to Cranmer for the picture!

 


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27 Responses

  1. DP111 says:

    WfW

    As you know I’m against our membership of the EU. But lately I wondered, that if the EU collapsed, the USA would again be left as the sole economic and military power. The result for us would be, that Britain would become a lapdog of America.

    That is far worse then the state we are in, as equals in the EU.

    • Nick says:

      WEll, yes, but we are not ‘equals’ in the EU. We are a huge economy amongst pygmies happy to soak up our wealth. It is a massive drain on our income.

      The EU, however, is not comparable to America neither economically or militarily. Ignoring that most European armies are much smaller, have inferior equipment they are often more militia than a standing armed force. In policy erms they simply do not fight as we expect an army to, and then there’s the most obvious drawback: language.

      SO I disagree: far better to be out of Europe completely, unchained by the hateful shackles imposed on us by evil men and trading as we used to than welded to the cancerous tumour that is the EU.

    • david says:

      DP: The EU can hardly be called a military power, surely? I also fail to see that if we left the EU that we would become a lapdog of the US.

  2. Robin says:

    I put it down to British nationalism/patriotism versus continental/Germanic ideas of nationhood .
    Our way founded new countries around the world .Eventually the colonies find their new identification . Its not based on blood , ethnicity or even religion .Its based on culture and the evoltion of culture .

  3. Sue says:

    Funnily enough, I was having this discussion on twitter earlier. We were chatting about news stories involving strange migrant practices such as the stupidly named “honour killing” type. Other headlines, more frequently, outside of the UK, Islamic terrorists are described as being “home grown” from Britain. These aliens have in effect taken on our identity and plunged it into global disrepute.

    The only sure way of separating ourselves from this ghastly multicultural hotchpotch which denigrates our identity is to stop describing ourselves as European or British and start using our ethnic bloodline descriptors (which cannot be breached) and calling ourselves English, Welsh or Scottish. These are and always will be ours, their roots lie in centuries of a shared history.

    Nationalism can be shared I believe. I’ve known quite a few people from the West Indies and India who are fiercely patriotic. Look for example at the Gurkha’s, who our government treat abominably. Rather than offering the likes of Abu Qatada a home in the UK, they should be honouring those who fought side by side with our troops in defending our country.

    I actually think tests for citizenship which test knowledge of history etc. are a waste of time. If you need to test somebody, look at their actions. We should stipulate a period of 10 years or so of permanent residence as a pre-requisite for citizenship. Once completed, if that person has not committed a crime, speaks English well, has been employed and integrated, that should be test enough. Perhaps a quick route would be to serve in the armed forces for 5 years. It doesn’t have to be in active service for those who are conscientious objectors.

    You cannot expect people to completely leave their roots. We’re all proud of where we come from. Americans seem to have adapted quite well by using both titles as in, African Americans, Asian Americans etc…

    Integration with some ethnic minorities will never work. When a culture “occupies” an area which in turn becomes a “no-go” district for all others, integration will never occur. Everything is geared towards that culture. Shops, banks, schools and neighbours. Even the need to learn English is no longer a necessity. I saw this happening with Britons in certain parts of Spain and it annoyed me there as much as it does here. Why move to another country if your intention is to just “use and abuse?” Why not immerse yourself in the culture, surely that is one of the reasons for re-locating? If not and you’ve been given asylum, a safe haven, wouldn’t you feel obligated to make an effort to pay back that kindness?

    As far as the European Union’s neverending campaign to force an European identity on us (also against our will and consent), it has only served to do completely the opposite. Only yesterday, Golden Dawn (Greece’s BNP) were handing out food parcels to Greeks only (ID’s had to be produced). Immigrants were being chased away.

    For an organisation that was meant to bring peace (yeah right) and global harmony (another lie), it has failed miserably. Many of Europe’s cities are now “foreign enclaves” where the police refuse to go.

    Let’s be honest here, the negative side to multiculturalism has now surpassed the positive. It’s a policy that has failed dismally and our politicians haven’t a clue what to do about it.

    There will be blood on the streets eventually.

    • david says:

      Sue, Cannot fault a word of your comment – well said! On citizenship, I would also copy the Swiss route whereby it is communities that grant citizenship as they are the ones with whom immigrants live and they are the ones best able to observe their behaviour.

    • Edward. says:

      Aye, to all of that.

    • Woodsy42 says:

      Spot on Sue. I have been describing myself – and ammending official forms accordingly – as ‘English’ for years. Particular vitriol being applied to choices of Scottish, Welsh or British.
      I don’t see a problem about having ‘civic’ or ‘ethnic’ nationalism, unless of course ethnic practises are promoted above those of the host nation as currently is the case, but fundamentally it should work. You don’t abandon your family loyalties when you get married, so shouldn’t need to abandon ethnic links when you emmigrate, the proviso is that the chosen path and chosen values should always take precedent.

  4. Edward. says:

    I am a European and proud of the fact but I am far more proud of the fact that I am British, English and to boot born in God’s own county. All the last three – rotate in pride of place – this week it is my British nationality which springs to the fore. When the British LIONS play – I can call on some Irish blood too:^) and dearly love to see the ‘five’ nations play Rugby as one team – glorious stuff.

    I will, to my dying breath hate what the EU has done to my country and to the nations of Europe – which I still love to visit.

    The EU flag, makes me want to spit.

    Norman Tebbo’ was right about the ‘cricket test’ as well.

    • david says:

      Other than the point I do not class myself as European and never will, I can go along with your comment.

      • Edward. says:

        By accident of birth, if you were born on the North Western edge of the Eurasian continental plate – then your DNA analysis will demonstrate your innate European heritage – it’s in our bones but…..I know what you mean David.

      • Andy Baxter says:

        I might live in a geographical continent called Europe Edward but no way do I identify myself as a European, politically, historically, intellectually or emotionally No Non Nien NEVER!

        Being born a Scot and fiercely proud of my country and clan heritage (I too cheer on the Lions, but support Scotland in the 6 nations!) but also having a powerful and overwhelming loyal sense of identity of being BRITISH (a unique accident of birth of which I am truly grateful, for nowhere in the world is their any place where the people of FOUR very different, distinct, proud, martial, innovative, charitable, passionate, eccentric, COUNTRIES, surrounded by water on a tiny island in the scheme of global things, NOWHERE in teh world has this happened that FOUR NATIONS have come together as ONE nation, kept their identities and culture YET gifted to the world such amazing advances in:

        industry, agriculture, engineering, architecture, science, sport, medicine, culture, art, literature, music…..et al…….and whose armed forces were once the most feared (even despite equipment deprivations) and respected in the world because of our pride in our martial history borne from the sense of identity Regiments, Ships and Squadrons had with their locales…….

        my wife is Mexican but she identifies with Britain, she loves this place, our country, she delights in our woodlands, our countryside,(and has even grown to love the colder climate!) she loves our art, our music, our history, our culture, our literature and on our many visits back to Mexico to visit family and friends I am amazed EVERY time at how much respect and reverance I am given by Mexicans I meet stangers as well as family and friends for being British…..it humbles me….

        I weep at times at the decline and the nadir our nation The UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND has sunk to…..because of self serving venal politicians wedded to the religion of power and self. I want our OUR country back and our pride back…

        that is why Harrogate is so important to me…..

        • david says:

          Nicely put!

          Of course the beauty of direct democracy is that the individual countries would have equal opportunity to be themselves, yet retain the overarching fact of being one country.

    • graham wood says:

      Edward. Agree with the spirit of your post, but I would reverse the order – “I belong first to, possibly, county (what part of Yorkshire by the way? (grin) – English, British, and then only European. Would we not all agree the the EU should NEVER be directly conflated with “Europe” as the MSM and our ignorant MPs so often do?
      In cultural terms it is an alien concept having no affinity with the great cultural wonders that historacally emerged from the European states over centuries.
      The EU’s attempt to thrust its own evil brand of egalitarianism down the throats of the European nation states with their “ever closer union” doctrine is a bizarre aberration that is a kind of neo Fascism.
      Nothing wrong with nationalism (not my country right or wrong), but “pan-nationalism” EU style is cloud cuckoo stuff.

  5. wg says:

    What Graham Wood says is very important, we must watch our language – the EU is not Europe.

    Europe is where I go for my holidays and to spend some time with my fellow Europeans.

    The EU is an incompetent and anti-democratic bureaucracy that acts more powerfully than it actually is.

    I do like the English comment from above – it has become clear that some of the athletes from Scotland and Wales do not wish to be associated with our Monarchy(as do a number of OUR fellow Englishmen/women), the symbol of our soverignty, maybe it’s time to call it a day and ask them if they are with us or wish to go their own way.

    English nationalism is on the rise and crying out for representation.

    To complicate matters more – would the North of England be happy to be associated with a Conservative South – patriotism comes in a variety of types.

    Multiculturism is finding that it can not alienate itself from its adopted country – if it wants to survive and thrive it needs to adapt, and that means supporting the national institutions, sports teams included

  6. DP111 says:

    To all

    I responded in a long post, but clicked the “Post comment” button before entering the Captcha thingy. The result, the entire post was lost.

    Beware this does not happen to you. Its most annoying.

    Its 1.30 am at present, so I’m of to bed now.

    • graham wood says:

      DP Yes very annoying. I always ‘copy and paste’ any post so that any ‘glitch’ can be recoverd without losing sometimes lots of hard work in composing a reply. This simple act removes hours of self inflicted pain!

  7. Robin says:

    “England Doesn`t Exist ” . I must get that book , written by a Dutchman .In it he shows that England isn`t a piece of land , an economy , an ethnic set of people or laws . Its a state of mind .
    New Zealanders , Australians or Americans dont think of themselves as AngloSaxon , they are new nationalities .

  8. DP111 says:

    Thanks Graham, I will bear it in mind for the future.

    ———————————-

    I’m not going to put all that I wrote yesterday. Instead, I will post what started me thinking on the concept of the EU, and above all, our membership.

    It all began when I noted, that all my thinking was based on free thinking i.e., free thought without the burden of any responsibility for my suggestions or views.

    So I put myself as the PM of the UK, with all the burdens of state on my shoulders. The moment I did so, things started to appear quite different. (This is apart from getting re-elected, which to a PM is far more important)

    First of course was all the advice I would be getting from my senior civil servants (I can’t ignore them, or I would be a lost PM). Then the views of my cabinet colleagues, the various heads of state of Europe, Australia and NZ. Then the attitudes of China, India and above all USA (The foreign Office).

    For the purpose of this topic, we need only consider the international arena, and its consequences in the domestic arena.

    To cut a long story short

    1. The EU provides a very powerful group, which shields us from states, particularly the USA, which may think of applying trade bans or tariffs on Britain, to achieve political ends. This is not hypothetical, as we have been subject to such pressure before, and had to bend to US will.

    2. The EU is a diplomatic force multiplier for Britain, with its permanent seat in the UNSC.

    I also considered the Anglo-sphere and the Old Commonwealth as possible memberships for the UK if we withdraw from the EU. The first would be dominated by America, and the second was just too small to have any international clout. In any case, the Old Commonwealth is defunct, and its old members in the US camp.

    Bear in mind, that as PM, if I ignore too many view points, as well as antagonise too many European nations, then withdrawal from the EU would be full of hazards for Britain, which will be exploited by other nations(There are no friends in international politics, just interests).

    I will leave it at that, and you can put yourself in no 10.

    Look forward to your replies.

    • WitteringsfromWitney says:

      First, in regard to the Captcha problem – don’t know why that should happen but will investigate.

      My answer to the PM problem is that they all want the job, don’t come running to me with your problems. After all they have the degree that they believe is the be all and end all to become a politician.

      Perhaps if they did not attempt to act like dictators, ordering all and sundry around, they might find their problems are not that many.

    • Robin says:

      Why do you want international clout ?
      (Is your post playing devil`s advocate ?)

      • DP111 says:

        Why do you want international clout ?

        To prevent being clobbered.

        (Is your post playing devil`s advocate ?)

        Without someone dong so, one ends up with a wrong understanding of the issue.

  9. DP111 says:

    WfW wrote: My answer to the PM problem is that they all want the job, don’t come running to me with your problems. After all they have the degree that they believe is the be all and end all to become a politician.

    Of course they all do. I wouldn’t exclude myself from that sin. In any case, I excluded that case from the argument.

    Is there a tile limit on the Captcha code?

    • david says:

      I am referring teh Captcha problem to my IT Guru as it is beyond my job description (I dont have a PP£ degree!)

  10. david says:

    Re the Catcha problem:

    Using the back button will lose all that has been written and is a problem with a lot of blog systems. Anyways, it has been reloaded and checked and should now work.

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